EU debating RO, or oil and bananas  

Thrown (Ţâpat) in , , , ,

The recent debate of Romanian politics in the European Parliament was the grotesque conclusion to this summer of our disco tent.

Viviane RedingThe star of the debate was undoubtedly Viviane Reding, who stuck to her guns in spite of an incredibly idiotic attack from USL and their socialist allies: she was even accused of wearing orange and thus implicitly a Basescu supporter (Catalin Sorin Ivan)! The Violet Flame (flacara violet) is alive and well in USL minds Devil

Just hours before, the Lithuanian president who was visiting Romania and met Traian Basescu has asked the Romanian political class to “grow up” then had Ponta had to prove he cannot. Meanwhile, the Venice Commission is also in Romania to investigate the rule of law.

You can watch Manfred Weber / Ioan Mircea Pascu, Hannes Swoboda, Corina Cretu, Petru Luhan, VC, Monica Macovei and Norica Nicolai’s interventions on YouTube (even Badea).

See my notes for the debate that lasted from 15:04 - 16:40 on 12-09-2012 (bulleted summary in RO from HN).
  • 15:05 Mavroyiannis, Andreas (Cypru, host): values and principles
  • 15:10 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:10 Reding, Viviane (Justice Commissioner)
    • E a doua oara in acest an cand trebuie sa discutam despre incalcarea statului de drept intr-o tara membra, mai intai Ungaria, apoi Romania.
    • Presedintele Comisiei (si CE) este gardianul tratatelor.
    • Ce se intampla cu statul de drept si cu independenta justitiei?
    • CE trebuie sa joace rolul sau de garant al tratatelor si sa declanseze procedurile de infringement daca constata incalcari.
    • Respectarea statului de drept nu are nimic de a face cu partidul de la putere.
    • Justitia trebuie sa fie oarba, nu trebuie sa recunoasca culoarea politica a partidelor, trebuie sa reactioneze numai la statul de drept.
    • Cineva a vorbit de situatia din Ungaria si situatia din Romania.
    • Suntem foarte stricti cu criteriile de la Copenhaga.
    • Odata ce a aderat un stat la UE, trebuie sa ramanem foarte fermi in ceea ce priveste statul de drept.
    • Procedurile noastre de infringement sunt prea tehnice si prea lente.
    • Iata de ce as dori ca impreuna cu PE si ministrii de justitie din statelemembre sa realizam un nou instrument, un mecanism mai tintit la acesteprobleme si de elaborare a eficientei sistemului judiciar din toatestatele membre.
    • Expertii care lucreaza pentru noi dezvolta in momentul de fata un fel de tablou de bord tabel de marcaj pentru cum se respecta legea justitie, in toate statele membre.
    • Noi europenii ne-am construit o comunitate care se bazeaza pe statul de drept.
    • De aceea nu trebuie sa permitem statului de drept sa devina un obiect pentru jocurile de partid.
  • 15:18 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:19 Weber, Manfred (CD / PPE) Ombudsman replaced, electoral list amended after, personal threats, this isn't in a banana republic, good that Reding reacted with determination, thank you
  • 15:22 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:22 Paşcu, Ioan Mircea (blue card): justice system has become a political actor and got involved in the political game - how can we go back to normality?
  • 15:23 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:23 Weber, Manfred CCR should be independent and we can't evaluate it; your group didn't want to go to Romania; they didn't want to be on the same podium with Ponta; i'd like to ask them to go to Romania
  • 15:24 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:25 Swoboda, Hannes (Socialists): VP - doubt on commission's objectivity. not a coup - referendum; Basescu introduced 50% b/c he knew what was coming; when B had emergency decrees nobody cared, now it's a scandal. This president was voted by 5.3, rejected by 7.4 million; majority turned their back on him yet he tried to cling on to power; he's not doing his job which is to bring ppl together
    • Nu am auzit o pozitie vis-a-vis de Ungaria.
    • Ati luat partea presedintelui Basescu, pun sub semnul intrebarii obiectivitatea Comisiei.
    • Ati vorbit despre o lovitura de stat parlamentara, aceasta este o contradictie in sine.
    • Eu sunt impotriva acestei situatii, introducerea cvorumului de 50%.
    • Ponta a respectat cvorumul.
    • Sa vorbesti despre o lovitura de stat in aceste conditii mi se pare nedrept.
    • De ce nu s-a vorbit cu cateva luni inainte despre faptele lui Basescu, atunci ati tacut malc.
    • Nu ati dat dovada de obiectivitate.
    • 7,4 milioane inseamna mult peste numarul celor care l-au ales pe Basescu.
    • Boicotul pe care el l-a promovat in ceea ce priveste participarea la referendum vorbeste de la sine.
  • 15:28 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:28 Luhan, Petru Constantin (blue card, PDL) both socialist and liberals brought the rule, did you know about the 50% (not 7.4 million)
    As vrea sa stiu daca domnul Swoboda a fost pus in cunostinta de cauza ca socialistii si liberalii impreuna au vrut sa contureze de fapt un cadru legislativ. Au organizat referendumul si tot ei au contestat referendumul.
  • 15:29 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:29 Swoboda, Hannes you don't like that socialists are in power; propaganda war, lies unacceptable
  • 15:30 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:30 Watson, Graham (lib-dem) : berlusconi, basescu, borisov: EU's B team playing fast & loose with the rule of law. why did the EU insist on the 50%+ rule, nowhere else in Europe
    • Nu e vorba de o lovitura de stat.
    • Un parlament ales de o majoritate a ales sa suspende un presedinte care a abuzat de putere.
    • Chiar presedintele a acceptat procedura cand a aparut in Parlament pentru a raspunde la intrebari.
    • Ce s-a intamplat dupa aceea este stupefiant.
    • Numirile la CCR sunt politice.
    • Nu este prima data cand domnul Basescu a fost supus unui referendum.
    • A schimbat legea referendumului.
    • De ce Comisia insista asupra unei reguli care nu se aplica in nicio alta tara.
    • In Europa, PPE-ul vrea sa isi consolideze puterea si primeste in randurile sale oameni ca Berlusconi si Basescu.
    • Cel mai bun lucru pentru Romania ar fi noi alegeri, atat parlamentare cat si prezidentiale.
  • 15:33 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:34 Harms, Rebecca (green) : tone: extended arm of the Romanian election campaign; parallels with Hungary: majority takes over the state; in both Ro and BG something isn't right wrt rule of law & corruption; this tool should be available for all members of the Union so that we're no longer called "interfering" when discussing a member; party blocks should not support undemocratic parties
  • 15:36 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:37 Dăncilă, Vasilica Viorica (blue card): it wasn't the Ponta gov who removed Basescu, but the Ro Parliament; he's been removed twice by two governments - this shows that we respect the rule of law
  • 15:38 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:38 Harms, Rebecca : never said that, but shared the concerns of many Ro citizens that the rule of law is not yet guaranteed
  • 15:39 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel : catch-the-eye removed by blue card - no more time for Ro colleagues; ar fi interesant
  • 15:40 Angourakis, Charalampos (green left): unacceptable this debate; ro ppl being insulted; this discussion the result of unacceptable austerity programme, unfair and hitting very hard; ppl duped into joining
  • 15:41 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:42 van der Stoep, Daniël (non-attached): ro like a banana republic; no openness or transparency; these are Ro problems, Ro sovereign choice, EU should stay out of it; stop interference; unelected eurocrats
  • 15:43 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:44 Preda, Cristian Dan Tocqueville - tyranny of the majority (illustration) - what can the EU do when Parliament demands 24h opinion from CCR? (..) electoral lists drawn up after election - thank the EU commission for lending a helping hand. Plagiarizing Ponta wasn't brave to make it here, choosing to criticized the commission in nationalist tones
  • 15:46 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:46 Enciu, Ioan (blue card): contradiction - parliament breaching rule of law; Base said 3 months prior that the Parliament is the guardian of democracy
  • 15:47 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:47 Preda, Cristian Dan : majority can subvert the rule of law.
  • 15:47 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:47 Ivan, Cătălin Sorin : (Socialists): rule valid nowhere else imposed by the Commission in Ro? I respect you Madam Reding but this summer you behaved like Basescu campaigner and now you are wearing Orange, you humiliated an entire ppl, subverted an entire state, questioned Parliament, how can a referendum be a coup? congratz for dangerous precedent; you imposed a president against the ppl. colleagues can rely on yr support for future elections
    • d-na Reding, in aceasta vara v-ati comportat ca un agent electoral al lui Traian Basescu, ati fost un membrul PDL desavarsit care il sustine pe T. Basescu, dar prindeclaratiile dumneavoastra ati adus prejudicii Romaniei.
    • Poate ne explicati cum un referenedum a devenit lovitura de stat
    • Vreau sa va felicit pentru ca ati creat un precedent foarte periculos pentru UE.
  • 15:50 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:50 Nicolai, Norica : not about Ro but about the state of the union and the values that connect us; leaders must defend democracy, cultural diversity. what articles of Constitution were breached? ppl validated. Jean Monnet: more Europe not by a coallition of the states but by uniting ppl. we can't be stronger by taking political sides. stronger when we know more about the countries we impose our views on.
  • 15:52 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:53 Sargentini, Judith (greens) first italy, hungary now ro - very transparent. ppl choose sides, Copenhagen criteria should apply to all member states. we don't want to judge ppl on merits. if elections in December, shouldn't we wait for the results rather than investigate now?!
  • 15:54 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:54 Mathieu, Véronique (CD): worried, venice commission, democracy undermined, ombudsman control, voting fraud, in France a socialist came to power cleanly, without changing the rule of law, why can't Ro socialists do the same?
  • 15:56 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:57 Tănăsescu, Claudiu Ciprian (blue card): how do you know?
  • 15:58 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:58 Mathieu, Véronique : I read newspapers, I go online.
  • 15:58 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 15:58 López Aguilar, Juan Fernando (Socialists): Orwellian sense some are more equal than others; commission monitor w/o 2X standards, yes to investigation; support from EU; Copenhagen criteria are for joining but also for staying
  • 16:00 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:00 Lunacek, Ulrike (greens): not surprised of ad hominem, EU credibility at stake; why no procedures to deal with human rights / democracy abuses; sad to see that Ponta is not here
    • In acest parlament se pune in joc credibilitatea UE, iar acest lucru este grav
    • Cum se poate sa ne criticam reciproc non stop fara a spune despre ce este vorba.
    • Avemnevoie de proceduri mai clare si mai rapide pentru a putea actiona mairepede impotriva incalcarii drepturilor omului si a democratiei.
    • De ce nu a putut sa fie dl. Ponta aici?
  • 16:02 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:02 Baldassarre, Raffaele (CD): Ro member since 2007, respecting. 3 pillars - one rule of law; one party taking over everything, breaking up the balance between institutions; why try to justify it? commission should continue to monitor.
  • 16:04 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:04 Göncz, Kinga (Socialists): what happened in Hungary - one party modified Constitution - monitoring mechanism, unbiased examination, sanctions imposed when abuses made
  • 16:06 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:07 Gáll-Pelcz, Ildikó (blue card): R U helping the Ro gov by attacking your own gove which demonstrated that it respected the rule of law?
  • 16:07 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:07 Göncz, Kinga : different: I'm talking about the EU credibility and mechanisms.
  • 16:08 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:08 Tavares, Rui (Greens): terrible what happened in Ro, 2-way street; a Ro judge will also judge EU. illusion that a member can come in then do anything. rules must be obeyed we can't have infringement of human rights.
  • 16:09 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:10 Macovei, Monica Luisa
    • Am intrat in UE ca sa avem o justitie dreapta independenta impartiala care sa judece pe oricine, chiar politician
    • Multumesc PE pentru ajutorul dat.
    • Ceea ce s-a intamplat in Romania a fost pentru oprirea acestor anchete facute de procurori + luarea justitiei captiva in curtea unor partide politice
    • Intr-unul din dosare le de la referendum este vorba de alegatii de 1,5 milioane de voturi furate la referendum. + proc sef frauda 5-10-15%
    • Fraudarea unui vot cea mai ticaloasa
  • 16:12 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:12 Boştinaru, Victor (blue card) interferinta halucinanta cu justitia.
    De unde stie dna Macovei cifrele unor anchete in curs. Pe 22 mai CSM a acuzat-o pe dna Macovei ca intervenit in cazul unui procuror.
  • 16:13 Macovei, Monica Luisa
    Cifra de 1,5 mil intr-un singur dosar este din presa. secretarul general al PSD. trebuie sa cooperam - importanta justitia din Ro
  • 16:13 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:14 Creţu, Corina (VP PSD)- imediat dupa referendum nicio acuza abia dupa 3 sapt. comisia EU taking sides. you ignored abuses by PDL; 2X standards
    • Curtea Constitutionala a Romaniei a decis ca Parlamentul a respectat procedurile constitutionale privind suspendareasi demiterea presedintelui.
    • Din pacate, Comisia Europeana a avut o pozitie partinitoare, situandu-se de partea presedintelui TraianBasescu si nefiind un arbitru neutru fata de o disputa politicainterna. Guvernul si Parlamentul ales au fost blamate din start
    • Nu v-am vazut la dezbaterea privind apararea democratiei in Ungaria, dar acum vreti sa faceti o paralela.
    • Ativorbit de 2 OUG ale Guvernului Ponta fara sa spuneti un cuvant de nenumaratele OUG ale guvernelor PDL. Dubla masura este atat de evidentaincat nu este de mirare ca increderea romanilor in Uniunea Europeana a scazut cu 10 procente in aceasta vara. (sursa: comunicat de presa PSD)
  • 16:15 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:15 Protasiewicz, Jacek (CD): ma uimeste discursul liberal care justifica dictatura
    • Bazademocratiei liberale este ca trebuie protejate drepturileminoritatilor. Acum majoritatea din Parlament il da afara pe avocatulpoporului, vrea sa il suspende pe presedinte. Nu are dreptul sa facaasta doar pentru ca reprezinta majoritatea ci doar daca au dreptate DACA au dreptate.
    • Nu se compara cu HU - pagube massive Fidesz - nu e o exceptie Ro, ci si in Polonia
    • Referendumul este validat si in Polonia numai printr-o prezenta la vot de 50%.
  • 16:17 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:17 Sippel, Birgit (Socialists)
    • Constitutiasi legile pot fi modificate insa exista niste reguli. Daca existasuspiciuni cu privire la aceste modificari, atunci ele trebuieverificate.
    • vor toate partile clarificare obeictiva, sau meci cu scaune bazate pe unde se alfa tara: S, N, E sau V
  • 16:19 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:19 Arlacchi, Pino (Socialists)
    • Timp de 8 ani Romania a fost condusa de un presedinte totalitar.
    • CE nu s-a pronuntat niciodata impotriva acestui sistem.
    • Romania a primit un nou guvern care a atacat acel sistem iar atunci, la cererea presedintelui Basescu, CE a intervenit.
    • Dna Reding, va rog sa va cereti scuze pentru ce le-ati spus.
  • 16:20 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:21 Watson, Graham 149.8 rule sets no limit on MEP interventions (Ms Macovei & I)
  • 16:22 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel - president & chair organize it MAY grant; Romanians most colleagues who want to speak - try to rationalize it & let other countries
  • 16:24 Sógor, Csaba (CD UDMR) - don't care about this debated, but nationalized churches properties; Copenhagen criteria should still apply
  • 16:25 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:25 Tabajdi, Csaba Sándor (Socialists) - gov restricting freedom of speech and rule of law; agree with reding but would've been more credible if done also to Basescu
  • 16:26 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:26 Weber, Renate (Liberals) - reding bad, basescu lost legitmacy
  • 16:27 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:27 Vadim Tudor, Corneliu (N/A) – <3 country; not involved, not agreeing; all elections “stoled”; trust me cuz i was a finalist but mafia reversed it; secret services and cia; ro=american colony; international control of elections.
  • 16:28 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel
  • 16:28 Gál, Kinga (CD) – socialists keep trying to hit Hungary, not a party and here we hear what the socialists have done elsewhere
  • 16:29 Martínez Martínez, Miguel Angel - conclude the debate
  • 16:30 Reding, Viviane (VP EC) – second time (after Hungary) debating rule of law in a member state; party concerns, similar attitudes, similar debates; when there is a breach, irrespective of political color, the Commission will stay firm & take action; 2009 I started infringement procedure against Ro to protect the national telecom regulator against a right-wing gov. same rationale when we brought Hungary court of justice for violation against data protection agency. such proceedings may seem small so what about independence of justice. commission must play its role as guardian of the treaty; small violations count, what about the big one? we need always to tackle these matters with independence and objectivity – nothing to do with parties. lady justice is blind, does not see political color, only reacts when rule of law is in danger. we see from these two examples that we lack mechanisms to deal with breaches of rule of law. can we see this again in other countries? we face a Copenhagen dilemma: we are very strict but once it’s joined we appear not to have an instrument to see whether the rule of law and independence of the judiciary are kept. we need a mech. b/c our infringement procedures are too technical & slow and art 7 is a nuclear option – nothing in between. I propose to add a new mechanism for all member states and work together. My experts are developing a justice scoreboard for all member states.
    • La inceputul verii am asistat la o combinatie de actiuni intreprinse de autoritatile din Romania care au pus sub semnul intrebarii statul de drept, echilibrul democratic si independenta justitiei.
    • Situatia din Romania continua sa fie fragila.
    • Sper ca in urmatoarele saptamani si luni sa vedem ca toti actorii politici din Romania sunt hotarati sa respecte statul de drept si independenta justitiei in mod durabil si ireversibil.
    • Comisia a pregatit un raport asupra Romaniei in cadrul MCV in care face o evaluare critica a Romaniei.
    • Am incredere ca PE are aceleasi convingeri cu CE ca statul de drept si independenta justitiei se afla in centrul UE si trebuie respectate motiv pentru care uniunea face apel la toate fortele din UE pentru a contribui la stabilizarea situatiei din Romania.
  • 16:36 Papastamkos, Georgios (president of EU council) Socrates: don’t change the rules governing your political processes for reasons of political expediency
  • Radu Zlati ofera transcrierea intregului text al dezbaterii

In his commentary, ctp reiterates his belief that “Romania is not ignored”, much like a pitzi who thinks “he beat me out of jealousy, therefore he wuoves me.”

The only reasons the Romanian politics featured so prominently in Europe are:

  1. It provides justification for keeping Romania out of Schengen. The real reason why Romania cannot be a part of Schengen has to do with “Romani-phobia” or the fear, hatred and contempt most Europeans feel toward the highly mobile Gypsy minority in Romania and also, to a lesser extent, the fear they feel that the “Balkanic” spirit will contaminate the purity of the Germanic Europe.
  2. This cheap theater is a welcome Summer distraction, much like a South American soap opera.
  3. It’s a stark reminder of how bad things can get if the Commission is not strengthened (“United States of Europe”).

Other than that, partisanship is alive and well in the European Parliament. The Progressive – Socialists attacked strongly Viviane Reding for her double standards, perhaps in compensation for shunning Ponta and cancelling the Bucharest meeting. The chair, Martinez, tried in vain to keep the debate civil by cutting microphones when the speakers would get too hot-headed or take more than 1 min (very often) and attempting in the beginning to get Manfred Weber to either ignore or be nice when responding to a rather benign question from Ioan Mircea Pascu. Weber had none of it and instead hit hard reminding of the Socialist near-betrayal of Ponta. The Greeks used this opportunity to talk about a forcibly imposed program of austerity, UDMR talked about returning church lands and their minority’s protests, and some German MEPs expressed their worry that Romanian style politics is contaminating the EU Parliament, instead of the opposite influence taking hold.

Why the title next, in .

For a USL-aligned view take a look at Octav Pelin’s article, while Clemy writes about USL bringing “satra” (the Gypsy commune) to the EU Parliament.

Sources / More info: eu-ro-deb8, hn, bananas, ctp

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